Here's a classic argument I've been mulling over (yet again, for the roughly billionth time) of late and am curious to hear your thoughts on it.
1. Assume there is a God who is omnibenevolent (all-good), omniscient (all-knowing), and omnipotent (all-powerful)
2. Assume there is evil in the world (we can see it everyday in the papers, as they say)
3. Given 1, we should not have 2.
4. Therefore, either 1 or 2 is false.
5. Since we know 2 to be true, 1 must be false.
6. Hence, there is no God (at least not the kind described in 1).
This argument, or versions of it, has been around for a very long time and is one of the most widely written on topics in all of philosophy. Odds are you've heard it before (at least in a form like this, "How can there be evil if there's a God?").
Almost all possible responses focus on premise 3 above -- that is, they try to offer an explanation for how 1 and 2 CAN co-exist and therefore once 3 is false, we have no problem.
Is there any other broad approach? What approach do you take to this problem? How can you defend the argument (if you are so inclined) against the possible responses?
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20 comments:
T3 is the coolest.
The fact that there is evil in the world is no proof that God does not exist. Rather, the very fact that the evil (which is generally caused by humans) has not entirely destroyed life as we know it is proof that he does indeed exist and is infinitely benevolent despite our many shortcomings. God allows men to act for themselves and to choose between good and evil, and he will never deny an individual the right to choose his actions regardless of the consequence. Should other people be harmed by the actions of another, God is the omniscient judge of all - the victim will receive a just and merciful reward, and the violator will be punished according to his actions and God's mercy.
Furthermore, there are natural laws that God has put in place such as nature and the weather. He allows such laws to function in their normal capacities - even, at times, to the detriment of human beings.
For the human, all of these bad things that occasionally happen are simply results of the life of freedom that we have the privilege to lead. Along with the bad, we also enjoy the good. The very same laws that bring hurricanes also bring sunshine and harvest. The same freedom of choice that men have to kill, steal, or lie allows us to give life, serve each other, and praise each other for our accomplishments.
God has given us the opportunity to feel and experience pain so that we can also have joy, pleasure, and fulfillment. Faith is required to believe that He is omniscient and conscious of all bad things that affect us; that he his all-loving and will ultimately do what is in our best interest.
Capt Strawser is my hero
I think that people automatically assume that anything bad that happens to them is "evil." If we see something that we "know" isn't right, morally correct or goes against the established norm we think that an evil force (satan, beezlebub, democrats) caused it. Well what if there really is no evil force behind everything? People are in general evil beings according to multiple holy texts and observed practices, but we were made that way by an all-knowing, all powerful God. In this line of reasoning it can be assumed that God is responsible for evil. Therefore if evil exists on earth it has been caused by God, proving that he is in fact "real." If you look at it this way, the presence of evil validates the existence of God.
I have read many arguments related to this topic; and while there are a variety of explanations one of the most intersesting arrived in my inbox about a year ago. I doubt it is a true story but it is thought provoking. The story is as follows:
Who Created Evil?
As you read this, I challenge you to really let it's meaning sink in.
This eloquently answers one of the profound questions of life.
Did God Create Evil?
The university professor challenged his students with this question:
"Did God create everything that exists? "
A student bravely replied "Yes, he did!"
"God created everything?" the professor asked.
"Yes sir," the student replied.
The professor answered, "If God created everything, then God created
evil since evil exists, and according to the principal that our
works define who we are, then God is evil."
The professor was quite pleased with himself and boasted to the
students that he had proven once more that the Christian faith was a
myth.
Another student raised his hand and said, "Can I ask you a question
professor?"
"Of course," replied the professor.
The student stood up and asked, "Professor , does cold exist?"
The professor replied "Of course it exists. Have you never been cold?"
The students snickered at the young man's question.
The young man replied, "In fact sir, cold does not exist. According
to the laws of physics, what we consider cold is in reality the
absence of heat.
Everybody or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits
energy, and heat is what makes a body, or matter, have or transmit
energy.
Absolute zero (- 460 degrees F) is the total absence of heat. Cold
does not exist. We have created this word to describe how we feel if
we have no heat.
The student continued. "Professor, does darkness exist?"
The professor responded, "Of course it does."
The student replied, "Once again you are wrong sir. Darkness does
not exist either. Darkness is in reality the absence of light.
Light, we can study, but not darkness. In fact we can use Newton's
prism to break
white
light into many colors and study the various wavelengths of each color.
You
cannot measure darkness. A simple ray of light can break into a
world of darkness and illuminate it. How can you know how dark a
certain space
is?
You
measure the amount of light present. Isn't this correct? Darkness is
a term used by man to describe what happens when there is no light
present."
Finally the young man asked the professor. "Sir, does evil exist?"
Now uncertain, the professor responded, "Of course , as I have
already said.
We see it every day. It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity
to man.
It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world.
These manifestations are nothing else but evil."
To this the student replied, "Evil does not exist sir, or at least
it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It
is
just
like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the
absence of God.
God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when man
does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold
that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when
there is no
light."
The professor sat down.
I honestly do not know if there is a God. It is a question that I have struggled with through the years. But, I don't believe the argument is valid because of premise number one. Nowhere in there does it imply that the existence of an all-good, all-knowing, and all-powerful God negates the possibility of evil. God, if you believe most of the stories and scriptures of various religions, introduced the concept of free will. Free will implies that people can turn their back away from God (in effect to not be good). Therefore, it seems if there is free will, then there can be evil, even with an all-powerful, all-good, and all-knowing God. So, while I may not necessarily believe, there is no reason to believe God does not exist simply because there is evil in the world. If he exists as the first assertion states, he is most certainly capable of stopping evil, but that does not necessarily mean he will.
I agree with ccom's input. If one believes that evil is impossible if a God exists who is all-powerful, all-good, and all-knowing, then that person has forgotten one thing. If someone believes the aforementioned charactistics about God, he or she likely believes that God has created people in his image, as well. This means that people have the ability to act independently, to communicate, to create things, and to carry out other "God-like" actions in their own realm of finite influence.
Significant among these characteristics is one's ability to treasure and love, which significantly impacts the course of one's life. Essentially, a person can choose to love God and treasure the same things that an all-knowing, all-powerful, and all-good God would treasure; or a person can choose to spurn God and love other things or ideas that are not considered all-knowing, all-powerful, and all-good. Where a person places their treasure will direct the path of their life to good or to evil. And while a human-conceived human being cannot enact ultimate goodness nor ultimate evil in the world, they can proliferate good and evil influences with their limited levels of knowledge, power, and goodnes (or lack thereof).
Thus, an all-knowing, all-powerful, and all-good God can create beings with limited forms of the same characteristics. But it is these beings (people) who choose to reject the infinite goodness of God and set their hearts on evil things, however subtle that evil may arise. It is therefore the willed absence of God in the hearts of people that allows for evil to exist--but that does not negate the belief that a God complete in knowledge, power, and goodness created all people with the same abilities to know, to rule, and to love.
It seems like everyone is centering around proving how God and Evil in the world co-exist. But the question was to NOT focus on that...
is there any other way to disprove the argument?
I think ccom was on the right track. I think there needs to be a common basis on what evil really is...
If evil really is the absence of God then the argument is not sound because we know that something cannot co-exist with its absence.
If one and two are correct, there is a possibility that people have complete free will, and can commit evils if they wish. If people commit these evils, they are exercising their God-given right of free will. This disproves the statement made in #3. One could have just as easily said if one is true, and two is true, and 3 = "people have free will which was granted by God, and people commit evils"; then therefore there is a God.
The argument in itself is not strong since 3 can be replaced with the 3 i presented.
this is just a test
o.k. well i dont know how to delete that so i'm just gonna leave it be. anyways, please let me begin by saying that before coming to this place i spent over 12 years going through private Catholic school, so yes, i have heard this debate many times over and the reason that the 3rd premise is always the one attacked is becuase it is the only one that makes sense to attack. as for the 1st premise, if an atheist was looking at the argument it would be over from the start. so the main people dealing with this issue from a personal standpoint are going to primarily be belieavers of a god. Then move onto the 2nd premise. As mentioned in the post, no one in their right might could say there is no evil. So now we come to the first conclusion where God and evil cannot coexist. To refute this claim i will use an analogy long engrained in my years of religious schooling known as the view of God as the Great Clockmaker. A clockmaker puts all of the cogs and gears together to create a clock. When he is finished he stands back and just watches his creation, occassionally opening it back up to make minor corrections if needed, but for the most part just leaves it to its own devices. In this way, God created the Earth and its people then stood back and let us develop as we have. Aside from a few incidents where people would say that God intervened, God for the most part has left us to do whatever we want, the whole idea behind that free will thing. And one of those things that humanity chose to do was create the concept and mode to do evil, all because God was kind enough to give us free will. Our ability to do as we choose, God's great gift to man, has in turn given us to do as we choose, which is create evil. Therefore the two can coexist
last one on this, i swear.
No where in omnibenevolent, omniscient, and omnipotent does anyone say that God is all-intervening. True, someone could say that all-good implies that he would not allow such evils to occur, but if God was always stepping in and telling us do not do this and do this then he will have taken away our free will which made he/she/it/whatever omnibenevolent in the first place.
This doesn't really disprove any premise in the given argument, but i think some of the premises could be modified.
This is indeed a timeless question and an important one for the Christian faith as it exemplifies the challenge of Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden. As the story goes, they could have anything they wanted but under no circumstances could they indulge in the forbidden fruit. Well, they were unable to resist the temptation and used their free will also given to them by God. Free will allows us to make decisions on a daily basis. Without the ability to make decisions, both good and bad, mankind would lose their identity and be categorized as just another animal right next to chimpanzees.
God gave us free will knowing that we would screw up, thus he really is all knowing. Jesus died for our errors, sins, to show us his (and God’s) care for us. Parents act similarly allowing us to fall down several times as we learn to make better decisions. Here at USAFA probation is used as a tool when we trip up after making a poor decision. Whether it’s Jesus dying for us, our parents letting us get hurt sometimes after a poor decision, or going through the mentoring and other parts of probation, our decisions make us who we are and mold us into the only organism with free will. In the animal kingdom, free will equates to natural selection…a bird is too lazy to go find some worms and he’ll die. If we’re too lazy to go to breakfast, all of First Group will be restricted forever and we won’t be able to close our doors…nevertheless we learn from our mistakes and move on, just as the all knowing/powerful/loving God intended by giving us our biggest asset, Free Will.
i agree that a common definition for evil needs to be determined. a better way to phrase the argument may: there is a God (omnibevolent, etc.), he does not allow "His" evil. either way im not sure that God is omnibevolent to begin with and the argument could be refuted on that acount. you could stake the claim several times in the bible God's chosen people were forced through pain and suffering (evil). So who says the world has to be perfect now?
of course this argument is valid but, in my opinion, not even close to being sound. yes, there is evil in the world and yes, God has all the powers stated in the argument. one thing that is overlooked though is the Free Will of the people that God created. When was it ever said that God controls every single decision ever made on the face of the earth? He does not. God created the world and the people that live in it. From there he made a set of "guidelines," if you will, that people should follow so that there is not evil. The great/terrible thing about the world we live in today is that the choice to follow these regulations lies directly with the individual.
God is everything and has the capacity to do anything, but He chooses good in all instances because of His inconceivable love for us. He loves us so much that He gave us free will when He created man. Through that act, He empowered man to choose between good and evil. He wanted to us to follow Him out of our own choice. We cannot choose good if there is no opposite. Therefore, we exist with the capacity for good and evil so that we can chose to follow God. This is how he created us.
I would also argue that the third premise is not sound. I believe that God is defined by the three aspects outlined in the first premise. I also believe that there is evil in the world. However, I do not believe that these are incompatible. God created the world, in perfect form (in the Garden of Eden) without any evil or hardship. God did, however, put into that world the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and established the only rule which was to not eat from that tree. Therefore, God created man that man could live in perfect paradise and in communion with God as long as he chose to not eat from that tree. The fact that God created man with a choice is important because he could have created a bunch of robots that worshiped Him, but He wanted to give us a chance to genuinely worship Him through our own choice. And the great deceiver, Satan (in the form of the serpent) was in fact telling the truth in that God knew the difference between good and evil and man too could know the difference. Satan did not mention that it would cost man paradise. Hence, the extra knowledge sounded like a good idea and man chose to know the difference between good and evil. Once that happened, the nature of choice which God had given man, who unlike God were not perfect, had the capacity to choose evil just like they had the capacity to choose good and were immediately separated from God because God is purely good and can not associate with any hint of evil.
Therefore, assuming that God decided to create some new being in the universe, the omni-benevolent God had two choices. One, he could have made all robots, or two, he could create people with free will. He decided on the later knowing the unfortunate outcome (the fall of man) in order to provide man the choice. This was still an act of an omni-benevolent God because He gave man the ability to choose perfect union with Him; however, we chose not to. Therefore, it is our own sinful nature that drives us to evil. And even then, it is God who sacrifices His son on the cross just to show is omni-benevolent character again in one eternal attempt to bring everyone to paradise with Him.
I think about this more in terms of the eurythpro dilemma (in that if God chose because it was right, then how does he exist) because it creates the question is morality higher than God. Sure humanity really has an image of God that is very humanlike when in actuality I would hope that the being that created the world is a little if not a lot different than humanity. When we look to the creation story of Adam and Eve, they were ignorant of the fact that evil existed and it never says that in between creating the dome of the world and the animals, God brewed a batch of evil. The argument is sound, but I would like to attack the first premise, in that God is perhaps not omnibenevolent. This explains evil it was not created by God or by God's cogs wearing and tearing, but the even God must struggle with this. In the Bible, there is the creation story discussing about how as God created and saw how good it was, he continued to create more. This would show that God is all powerful and all knowing and he attempts to create good more so than evil. Kant even gets to the point in the bus shark analogy that he claims maybe morality doesn't have an answer. If morality is beyond God and even morality although absolute is not always all-answering, and God chooses because something because it is good then it seems that evil exists, but that God is subject to it, and only in his omnipotent powers may he choose to always do good.
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